I have started a new post here continuing the discussion started at:
Well, I guess we have been told-(WARNING: LANGUAGE)
I begin with the latest comment and response:
KenwolfJan 29, 2012 04:56 PM
if you was to ask the question what osr means to you, i bet you would get a lot of different answers to that question. some people it means old school rules, some people say it means games made from the srd and ogl. some say it is all about the feel of the game. some say it is just retro clone games based on everything up to 1st edition.
you are the first person i have ever heard say that pathfinder i part of the osr. most people would say that pathfinder is just 3.75 of D&D im not bad mouthing it, if that's your thing good for you. but you are the first i have heard call pathfinder osr.
i guess i am not an osr gamer in your definition of it cause i play AD&D 2nd edition with a generous helping of 1st edition mixed in with it. i would consider me an older school gamer, but not so far as to od&d or basic.
i have been reading a lot of blogs talk about how excited they are about these developments. is that so bad really ? i have absolutely no love for wizards of the cost, but you can't blame them for destroying the osr or old school gaming. if just 2 announcements from wizards of the cost can have that bad of an effect on the community then it deserves to die.
it isn't the announcement from wizards that is driving the osr or old school gaming apart. it is people that say if you buy the new reprints then your not part of this community that are. or if you like 5E then you are a sell out. don't you think having someone tell you that would cause an argument just because you wanted to buy a gaming book ?
as for the posts that you mention. i think that's bull shit. i agree with you on that people that say we should buy them just because should kiss some ass. i have stated at a forum that i post on a bunch that i think they are over priced, and that i wouldn't buy them cause i already own a copy of them and if i wanted more i can get originals a lot cheaper on e-bay and if i wanted to put money to the charity fund for the statue i would just send them the money to begin with.
now i am gonna use your own words against you. "God forbid a company actually make a game the fans want and actually like." you just said that, so why are you so mad about it when people like wizards of the cost for doing something that they wanted them to do ??
maybe you need to read that statement that you just said and ask your self "why am i so mad about people liking a game that is produced by wizards of the cost."
i am here because i like reading blogs about the older editions of games and the stories that people have of playing those games when younger.
I replied with the following:
Ok, first, I concur with Justin Alexander when it comes to defining the stages of D&D. Yes, AD&D2e is old school. So is 3.x. His reasoning was all the editions had been different up through 3. But a fighter was still a fighter. You could recognize a fighter. When 4e hit it was a new ballgame. Justin play-tested both 3 and 4 and was excited about 4e to start with, but soon he saw where things were going, turned in his notes and has been hated by the Wizards fans ever since. But D&D is not OSR. Older D&D would be considered Retro Gaming. The OSR started in the 21st century.
Now, I'm not the first person to have a problem with Wizards. They have been sinking for 12 years. I agree with the majority of people who feel betrayed and ripped off by them.
Their track record is crap man, and they are promising a game that can't be made and certainly can't be played the way they describe. I'm a game designer. My first full RPG would have come out this year. Now I have to reconsider what I'm doing. I know they are blowin' smoke but every time they say they have a winner, well, if you think they have made a smart business move in 12 years I would like to see it. Man, they lost 22.5 million players...out of 24 million...that is awful.
Think about this for a second: You have a big box in a room sitting on a table, on the side a big bright D&D logo, a crank handle and a slot marked 'money comes out here' and you don't even know how to turn the crank.That's WotC.
Too little too late is my own view on these latest tactics. Go read what the 4e hardcore are posting. They hate us (people who aren't hardcore 4e fans) worse than ever. They blame US for the death of 4e. Is that rational?
I have my reasons for not liking Wizards and even TSR. When the 'industry' took off in the mid 80s I had opened a shop. My ads ran in Dragon magazine. I was on top of the world. 3 years of my life and every penny I could scrape together in the worst economy the country had seen since the Great Depression.
And TSR and the 'industry' sold us up the river. When the Satanic Panic started they backed down instead of telling those psychos to go to hell they screwed everything up trying to appease them. It was all about the money then. I lost everything, including my love for the game. It would be 7+ years before I would even look at a game again. I tried to get with AD&D2e, spent a small fortune on Dark Sun and all the bells & whistles just to have no one want to play. I quit gaming again.
It would be almost 10 years before I would try again. It just didn't work out. And the war was raging over 3.0.
Wizards being bought out by Hasbro was probably the final nail in the coffin.
And if you read that quote up their at the top of the page on the right by Rob Conley that is what the OSR means to me.
Before the industry TRPGs were a 'hobby business'...games made by gamers for gamers. Look at all the famous people involved in gaming from 1973-89. They were gamers. I respect Erik Mona for being forthright about his gaming background. He gave a great keynote speech in 2009 (I have the link if you would like to watch it out at YouTube-be warned...it is over an hour long. Excellent speech though). The GenCon 2011 video of Erik and Lisa is also excellent.
And here's something too when it comes to Wizards vs. Paizo. You may have heard how Wizards has been having gaming items taken off the market due to copyright infringement. Most of that has been BS. But the OSR can't front the lawyers like the big boys have so they have no choice but to pull their product, even if the charge was bogus (which it was).
Paizo's own Sean K. Reynolds announced that fans and professionals alike were free to develop new material for the new Beginners Box (which is excellent btw) and even sell it because they were not going to be developing for it. I just like the way they are straight forward about stuff like that.
And I didn't say Paizo was OSR. They use the same SRD we all do who develop games under the OGL (Open Game License) and Pathfinder fans and OSR fans tend to get along. They seem to have a mutual respect for each other.
If people want to take the chance that a company that has failed the fans every single time they have released a new edition of D&D then that's their business. But don't shout down those who don't believe them anymore.
The OSR hobby business can't wait around for people to figure out what is going on here. They are small companies. They won't last without sales. If people are saving money for whatever it is that they think Wizards is going to deliver on they won't be spending money on the 'hobby business', which will kill the last place that many of us feel at home. As a publisher and a game fan it truly saddens me. I haven't enjoyed gaming like this in years. Now it's ruined. All anyone wants to blog about is WotC. I don't care about them or any announcements they make now or in the future.
Now I have to decide what I am going to do.