There's been a lot of discussion over the last year about turning points in the hobby and before history is allowed to warp what little reality is left in the subject, fwiw, here is a personal story.
Giants didn't kill AD&D. The rules didn't kill AD&D.
Success is what killed AD&D.
A company suddenly rife with success and capital coupled with coming onto the mainstream grid undermined the hobby causing knee-jerk reactions to everything from PR to R&D.
Satanic Panic played a large part in this to varying degrees at the time depending on where you lived. In the south forget about being banned as a game club in school. People were burning s*** in peoples yards who played or sold the game, scaring children and parents alike with their rhetoric of 'D&D is Satanism' remarks being printed in everything down to local newspapers. The Tom Hanks film became mandatory viewing in local schools where I lived.
The PR solutions, turning the concept into a Saturday morning children's program, lowering the age range on the actual product and pitching the game as a children's toy, etc and creating self-perpetuating product lines that gobbled money like a piranha on a fat water buffalo killed AD&D.
Even though the Red Box lays claim to the best selling single game product in the hobby it was AD&D, not D&D, that topped the sales charts, brought in people by the millions and created the legacy we know today as the D&D super brand.
And Dragonlance was the arrow in the heart of the gaming beast, now barely stirring in the water as more and more entered the feeding frenzy, causing the same type of overwhelming glut that occurred during the heyday of 3.0.
Past Basic and Expert most went on to play AD&D. That is where the estimated 25 million players came from that formed the base of the industry, now seen as a profitable commodity like toilet paper or dog food.
I understand that a lot of those vocal on the subject started with the Red Box and still connect with it to this day. But I also notice the ages of those who talk about it were 9, 10, 11 years old. You came at it from the perspective of the children that I mentioned earlier who had become part of the hobby in the early '80s. The age group who never seem represented are the young adults who started as teenagers with AD&D and were responsible for fueling the hobby with their own money from crappy jobs and later the same ones who would start companies and open stores and pay dearly for decisions made by major figures in the hobby at the time.
If you scrape at the paint a little too much you find the truth beneath the surface. Remember, truth is not fact but truth can lead one to the facts. And the white wash has been almost complete about that time period from 1977-1983.
Look at the marketing strategy at WotC even today. First a mock 'Red Box', then the reprint of the core AD&D books. Not the Original edition, nor B/X nor BECMI (or even Holmes which would be a great one shot money maker) but the hardest, largest core product to reproduce from the time period. Only one group know the true sales numbers from the brand and they have been slowly acting on those numbers.
Now, this is not to say that these other editions wouldn't see a reprint at some point, but marketing is based on numbers and AD&D was the 800lb gorilla of its time and even today remains the center of fiery discussions from both ends. Original edition players saw it as rules bloat and new school gamers see it as a jumbled mess that they use to point out everything that was wrong with gaming of the period and the thought of not only the reprints but bringing back parts of that system in 5e makes them want to puke.
I honestly don't see what WotC hopes to achieve with this FrankenGame approach. They have managed to alienate the very players they hoped to get back while turning current players against them. It is truly a no-win situation no matter what they do and I keep waiting for someone to stand up and say 'April Fools!' and then lay out the real strategy for bringing D&D back to the spotlight.
But I'm afraid this is a nightmare that we can't wake up from and soon another bloody mess will be pushed onto the stage with cattle prods to dance for people who throw things at it.
If you going to build off nostalgia then do so and show respect for that history. If you are going to build new then leave the past behind, rename the product and move on. Otherwise we get to watch the whole cycle repeat itself like a gaming version of the film Groundhog's Day.
EDIT: Sorry for the typo mess. It's been a bit hectic.
Showing posts with label Thoughts and Ruminations. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Thoughts and Ruminations. Show all posts
Sunday, May 13, 2012
Monday, April 2, 2012
Using Available Resources To Build A Game
I was reading a series of posts before all hell broke loose with my computers recently that postulated gaming with only certain resources. The AD&D Unearthed Arcana / Fiend Folio I thought was one of the better ideas I had run across lately and got me to thinking about what other 'mash ups' for want of a better word were possible with all the material out there.
So I pose this little mental gaming challenge:
Using only freely available material (OGC, Public Domain, etc) what items would you combine from any source to create a game.
(Extra points for how outrageous the combos are-Ninjas fighting Dinosaurs...high marks!)
Frankengame-It's not just for the big boys anymore :)
Post your weirdest in the comments! :)
(Here's the link about the unholy fusion I mention above: http://the-city-of-iron.blogspot.com/2012/03/fiend-folio-monsters-deities-unearthed.html)
So I pose this little mental gaming challenge:
Using only freely available material (OGC, Public Domain, etc) what items would you combine from any source to create a game.
(Extra points for how outrageous the combos are-Ninjas fighting Dinosaurs...high marks!)
Frankengame-It's not just for the big boys anymore :)
Post your weirdest in the comments! :)
(Here's the link about the unholy fusion I mention above: http://the-city-of-iron.blogspot.com/2012/03/fiend-folio-monsters-deities-unearthed.html)
Saturday, March 31, 2012
The Two Opposing Forces In D&D And Their Origins
Reading The Hickman Revolution and the Frustrated Novelist over at Monsters and Manuals got me to thinking about that dark time in the 80's when it was like someone had just switched off the light.
Speaking from being there when the double punch was delivered-Dragonlance and the Satanic Panic - it literally wiped me out...as a player, DM and shop owner.
Those who joined the hobby around that time are the direct ancestors to the modern gamer.
Folks get mad at me for saying so but it seems to be the best descriptions of both camps:
Old Schoolers bought things as inspiration, to be ripped apart and used piecemeal with individual additions and ideas.
New Schoolers are like baby birds who have to have their food chewed for them and deposited in their beaks. I suggested once to a 4e fan, mad about some rule that WotC had recently released in a book, and said 'why don't you just change the rule or not use it'...the response...'If I wanted to write my own f****** rules I wouldn't have bought the book'...and that's a quote.
Thank God I never looked for the 'perfect' game...I would have missed a lot of great gaming.
It is said that the early modules for D&D are the bane of gaming history because these items usually meant for tournament play were looked upon as the only proper way to play D&D...with TPK and Killer DMs around every corner.
But I say it was Dragonlance, the pre-generated characters riding the railroad, that brought us to where we are today, the end of the industry and the birth of the OSR.
Every subject that separates players today goes back to these fundamentally opposed philosophies.
The 'homebrewer' vs. the 'RAW'.
Speaking from being there when the double punch was delivered-Dragonlance and the Satanic Panic - it literally wiped me out...as a player, DM and shop owner.
Those who joined the hobby around that time are the direct ancestors to the modern gamer.
Folks get mad at me for saying so but it seems to be the best descriptions of both camps:
Old Schoolers bought things as inspiration, to be ripped apart and used piecemeal with individual additions and ideas.
New Schoolers are like baby birds who have to have their food chewed for them and deposited in their beaks. I suggested once to a 4e fan, mad about some rule that WotC had recently released in a book, and said 'why don't you just change the rule or not use it'...the response...'If I wanted to write my own f****** rules I wouldn't have bought the book'...and that's a quote.
Thank God I never looked for the 'perfect' game...I would have missed a lot of great gaming.
It is said that the early modules for D&D are the bane of gaming history because these items usually meant for tournament play were looked upon as the only proper way to play D&D...with TPK and Killer DMs around every corner.
But I say it was Dragonlance, the pre-generated characters riding the railroad, that brought us to where we are today, the end of the industry and the birth of the OSR.
Every subject that separates players today goes back to these fundamentally opposed philosophies.
The 'homebrewer' vs. the 'RAW'.
Sunday, January 29, 2012
Well, I guess we have been told-(WARNING: LANGUAGE)-Continued
I have started a new post here continuing the discussion started at:
Well, I guess we have been told-(WARNING: LANGUAGE)
I begin with the latest comment and response:
KenwolfJan 29, 2012 04:56 PM
if you was to ask the question what osr means to you, i bet you would get a lot of different answers to that question. some people it means old school rules, some people say it means games made from the srd and ogl. some say it is all about the feel of the game. some say it is just retro clone games based on everything up to 1st edition.
you are the first person i have ever heard say that pathfinder i part of the osr. most people would say that pathfinder is just 3.75 of D&D im not bad mouthing it, if that's your thing good for you. but you are the first i have heard call pathfinder osr.
i guess i am not an osr gamer in your definition of it cause i play AD&D 2nd edition with a generous helping of 1st edition mixed in with it. i would consider me an older school gamer, but not so far as to od&d or basic.
i have been reading a lot of blogs talk about how excited they are about these developments. is that so bad really ? i have absolutely no love for wizards of the cost, but you can't blame them for destroying the osr or old school gaming. if just 2 announcements from wizards of the cost can have that bad of an effect on the community then it deserves to die.
it isn't the announcement from wizards that is driving the osr or old school gaming apart. it is people that say if you buy the new reprints then your not part of this community that are. or if you like 5E then you are a sell out. don't you think having someone tell you that would cause an argument just because you wanted to buy a gaming book ?
as for the posts that you mention. i think that's bull shit. i agree with you on that people that say we should buy them just because should kiss some ass. i have stated at a forum that i post on a bunch that i think they are over priced, and that i wouldn't buy them cause i already own a copy of them and if i wanted more i can get originals a lot cheaper on e-bay and if i wanted to put money to the charity fund for the statue i would just send them the money to begin with.
now i am gonna use your own words against you. "God forbid a company actually make a game the fans want and actually like." you just said that, so why are you so mad about it when people like wizards of the cost for doing something that they wanted them to do ??
maybe you need to read that statement that you just said and ask your self "why am i so mad about people liking a game that is produced by wizards of the cost."
i am here because i like reading blogs about the older editions of games and the stories that people have of playing those games when younger.
I replied with the following:
Ok, first, I concur with Justin Alexander when it comes to defining the stages of D&D. Yes, AD&D2e is old school. So is 3.x. His reasoning was all the editions had been different up through 3. But a fighter was still a fighter. You could recognize a fighter. When 4e hit it was a new ballgame. Justin play-tested both 3 and 4 and was excited about 4e to start with, but soon he saw where things were going, turned in his notes and has been hated by the Wizards fans ever since. But D&D is not OSR. Older D&D would be considered Retro Gaming. The OSR started in the 21st century.
Now, I'm not the first person to have a problem with Wizards. They have been sinking for 12 years. I agree with the majority of people who feel betrayed and ripped off by them.
Their track record is crap man, and they are promising a game that can't be made and certainly can't be played the way they describe. I'm a game designer. My first full RPG would have come out this year. Now I have to reconsider what I'm doing. I know they are blowin' smoke but every time they say they have a winner, well, if you think they have made a smart business move in 12 years I would like to see it. Man, they lost 22.5 million players...out of 24 million...that is awful.
Think about this for a second: You have a big box in a room sitting on a table, on the side a big bright D&D logo, a crank handle and a slot marked 'money comes out here' and you don't even know how to turn the crank.That's WotC.
Too little too late is my own view on these latest tactics. Go read what the 4e hardcore are posting. They hate us (people who aren't hardcore 4e fans) worse than ever. They blame US for the death of 4e. Is that rational?
I have my reasons for not liking Wizards and even TSR. When the 'industry' took off in the mid 80s I had opened a shop. My ads ran in Dragon magazine. I was on top of the world. 3 years of my life and every penny I could scrape together in the worst economy the country had seen since the Great Depression.
And TSR and the 'industry' sold us up the river. When the Satanic Panic started they backed down instead of telling those psychos to go to hell they screwed everything up trying to appease them. It was all about the money then. I lost everything, including my love for the game. It would be 7+ years before I would even look at a game again. I tried to get with AD&D2e, spent a small fortune on Dark Sun and all the bells & whistles just to have no one want to play. I quit gaming again.
It would be almost 10 years before I would try again. It just didn't work out. And the war was raging over 3.0.
Wizards being bought out by Hasbro was probably the final nail in the coffin.
And if you read that quote up their at the top of the page on the right by Rob Conley that is what the OSR means to me.
Before the industry TRPGs were a 'hobby business'...games made by gamers for gamers. Look at all the famous people involved in gaming from 1973-89. They were gamers. I respect Erik Mona for being forthright about his gaming background. He gave a great keynote speech in 2009 (I have the link if you would like to watch it out at YouTube-be warned...it is over an hour long. Excellent speech though). The GenCon 2011 video of Erik and Lisa is also excellent.
And here's something too when it comes to Wizards vs. Paizo. You may have heard how Wizards has been having gaming items taken off the market due to copyright infringement. Most of that has been BS. But the OSR can't front the lawyers like the big boys have so they have no choice but to pull their product, even if the charge was bogus (which it was).
Paizo's own Sean K. Reynolds announced that fans and professionals alike were free to develop new material for the new Beginners Box (which is excellent btw) and even sell it because they were not going to be developing for it. I just like the way they are straight forward about stuff like that.
And I didn't say Paizo was OSR. They use the same SRD we all do who develop games under the OGL (Open Game License) and Pathfinder fans and OSR fans tend to get along. They seem to have a mutual respect for each other.
If people want to take the chance that a company that has failed the fans every single time they have released a new edition of D&D then that's their business. But don't shout down those who don't believe them anymore.
The OSR hobby business can't wait around for people to figure out what is going on here. They are small companies. They won't last without sales. If people are saving money for whatever it is that they think Wizards is going to deliver on they won't be spending money on the 'hobby business', which will kill the last place that many of us feel at home. As a publisher and a game fan it truly saddens me. I haven't enjoyed gaming like this in years. Now it's ruined. All anyone wants to blog about is WotC. I don't care about them or any announcements they make now or in the future.
Now I have to decide what I am going to do.
(end reply)
Well, I guess we have been told-(WARNING: LANGUAGE)
I begin with the latest comment and response:
KenwolfJan 29, 2012 04:56 PM
if you was to ask the question what osr means to you, i bet you would get a lot of different answers to that question. some people it means old school rules, some people say it means games made from the srd and ogl. some say it is all about the feel of the game. some say it is just retro clone games based on everything up to 1st edition.
you are the first person i have ever heard say that pathfinder i part of the osr. most people would say that pathfinder is just 3.75 of D&D im not bad mouthing it, if that's your thing good for you. but you are the first i have heard call pathfinder osr.
i guess i am not an osr gamer in your definition of it cause i play AD&D 2nd edition with a generous helping of 1st edition mixed in with it. i would consider me an older school gamer, but not so far as to od&d or basic.
i have been reading a lot of blogs talk about how excited they are about these developments. is that so bad really ? i have absolutely no love for wizards of the cost, but you can't blame them for destroying the osr or old school gaming. if just 2 announcements from wizards of the cost can have that bad of an effect on the community then it deserves to die.
it isn't the announcement from wizards that is driving the osr or old school gaming apart. it is people that say if you buy the new reprints then your not part of this community that are. or if you like 5E then you are a sell out. don't you think having someone tell you that would cause an argument just because you wanted to buy a gaming book ?
as for the posts that you mention. i think that's bull shit. i agree with you on that people that say we should buy them just because should kiss some ass. i have stated at a forum that i post on a bunch that i think they are over priced, and that i wouldn't buy them cause i already own a copy of them and if i wanted more i can get originals a lot cheaper on e-bay and if i wanted to put money to the charity fund for the statue i would just send them the money to begin with.
now i am gonna use your own words against you. "God forbid a company actually make a game the fans want and actually like." you just said that, so why are you so mad about it when people like wizards of the cost for doing something that they wanted them to do ??
maybe you need to read that statement that you just said and ask your self "why am i so mad about people liking a game that is produced by wizards of the cost."
i am here because i like reading blogs about the older editions of games and the stories that people have of playing those games when younger.
I replied with the following:
Ok, first, I concur with Justin Alexander when it comes to defining the stages of D&D. Yes, AD&D2e is old school. So is 3.x. His reasoning was all the editions had been different up through 3. But a fighter was still a fighter. You could recognize a fighter. When 4e hit it was a new ballgame. Justin play-tested both 3 and 4 and was excited about 4e to start with, but soon he saw where things were going, turned in his notes and has been hated by the Wizards fans ever since. But D&D is not OSR. Older D&D would be considered Retro Gaming. The OSR started in the 21st century.
Now, I'm not the first person to have a problem with Wizards. They have been sinking for 12 years. I agree with the majority of people who feel betrayed and ripped off by them.
Their track record is crap man, and they are promising a game that can't be made and certainly can't be played the way they describe. I'm a game designer. My first full RPG would have come out this year. Now I have to reconsider what I'm doing. I know they are blowin' smoke but every time they say they have a winner, well, if you think they have made a smart business move in 12 years I would like to see it. Man, they lost 22.5 million players...out of 24 million...that is awful.
Think about this for a second: You have a big box in a room sitting on a table, on the side a big bright D&D logo, a crank handle and a slot marked 'money comes out here' and you don't even know how to turn the crank.That's WotC.
Too little too late is my own view on these latest tactics. Go read what the 4e hardcore are posting. They hate us (people who aren't hardcore 4e fans) worse than ever. They blame US for the death of 4e. Is that rational?
I have my reasons for not liking Wizards and even TSR. When the 'industry' took off in the mid 80s I had opened a shop. My ads ran in Dragon magazine. I was on top of the world. 3 years of my life and every penny I could scrape together in the worst economy the country had seen since the Great Depression.
And TSR and the 'industry' sold us up the river. When the Satanic Panic started they backed down instead of telling those psychos to go to hell they screwed everything up trying to appease them. It was all about the money then. I lost everything, including my love for the game. It would be 7+ years before I would even look at a game again. I tried to get with AD&D2e, spent a small fortune on Dark Sun and all the bells & whistles just to have no one want to play. I quit gaming again.
It would be almost 10 years before I would try again. It just didn't work out. And the war was raging over 3.0.
Wizards being bought out by Hasbro was probably the final nail in the coffin.
And if you read that quote up their at the top of the page on the right by Rob Conley that is what the OSR means to me.
Before the industry TRPGs were a 'hobby business'...games made by gamers for gamers. Look at all the famous people involved in gaming from 1973-89. They were gamers. I respect Erik Mona for being forthright about his gaming background. He gave a great keynote speech in 2009 (I have the link if you would like to watch it out at YouTube-be warned...it is over an hour long. Excellent speech though). The GenCon 2011 video of Erik and Lisa is also excellent.
And here's something too when it comes to Wizards vs. Paizo. You may have heard how Wizards has been having gaming items taken off the market due to copyright infringement. Most of that has been BS. But the OSR can't front the lawyers like the big boys have so they have no choice but to pull their product, even if the charge was bogus (which it was).
Paizo's own Sean K. Reynolds announced that fans and professionals alike were free to develop new material for the new Beginners Box (which is excellent btw) and even sell it because they were not going to be developing for it. I just like the way they are straight forward about stuff like that.
And I didn't say Paizo was OSR. They use the same SRD we all do who develop games under the OGL (Open Game License) and Pathfinder fans and OSR fans tend to get along. They seem to have a mutual respect for each other.
If people want to take the chance that a company that has failed the fans every single time they have released a new edition of D&D then that's their business. But don't shout down those who don't believe them anymore.
The OSR hobby business can't wait around for people to figure out what is going on here. They are small companies. They won't last without sales. If people are saving money for whatever it is that they think Wizards is going to deliver on they won't be spending money on the 'hobby business', which will kill the last place that many of us feel at home. As a publisher and a game fan it truly saddens me. I haven't enjoyed gaming like this in years. Now it's ruined. All anyone wants to blog about is WotC. I don't care about them or any announcements they make now or in the future.
Now I have to decide what I am going to do.
(end reply)
Monday, January 23, 2012
Crossroads
The year isn't even a month old yet and already chaos seems to haven taken root. Screw the Mayans, we'll burn this puppy ourselves.
Something that a lot of people don't know about me is that my background is sales and marketing. My first business was a game store that not only went belly up but belly flopped so as to create a massive wave of debt that I paid off by way of a crappy job afterwards.
Now, I was young and inexperienced but not without council and guidance. This was the mid-'80s, just when the gaming industry took over. This was when my problem began.
Satanic panic had set in and the economy was crap. Instead of pulling for the retailers who were the backbone of the business at that time and standing up for the company TSR basically fed us to the lions.
So my problem began long before Wizards was even dreamed of.
But I know BS when I smell it.
I do not like the company. I do not trust the company. I can tell you the next 10 moves to make to break Paizo's back and destroy the OSR in one fell swoop. And it seems the OSR is already falling for it.
Somehow people have confused the OSR with D&D. Whatever those initials stand for D&D is not part of the OSR. For all practical purposes the OSR began with OSRIC. OSR is about NOW. Otherwise you are talking about 'classic' or 'retro' gaming. Big difference.
The division that WotC keeps causing with each new announcement will continue. Then everyone will go out and buy their crap again infusing enough money into the dept. to keep it running.
Anyone in their right mind can read what is being said about 5e and know that it is impossible. Come on, just look at one example-skills and feats - just this alone divides more fans than just about anything.
Without them you lose the new school player and with them you lose the old school player.
Old schoolers want to role-play. New schoolers want to build a tank and drive it through a dungeon.
This list could go on but I just wish people could see what is going on just as it has in the past and just say no this time. It might be different if we didn't have the vibrant scene that is gaming in some cases 24 hours a day, but we have what we need. And if we don't by tomorrow morning someone will have wrote it.
My own project sits at a crossroads. I am very frugal with resources but finding myself short of labor and behind schedule has placed me in the position of having to decide whether I proceed further. I know there must be others who are in the same corner and the folks who have made this a going concern have to have a case of nerves as well.
Top that with a rapidly changing tech situation (that I think has taken out Eternal Keep, but I'm still hoping) that is causing nightmares for everyone involved and I don't see there being an OSR at the end of the year.
Which is what they want. The re-print will give them the cash boost to get through (do you really think they aren't going to be holding back cases of DMGs to auction on eBay after the LTD ED runs out? $150 a pop most likely) and then the initial sales and reviews will drive the final nail in the coffin.
I notice how no one has mentioned how this game has already been in secret play tests and everyone I have read about in those play tests are 4e people. And they like it. Which means old schoolers will not.
The news on the Eternal Keep isn't good. Being unable to save the changes to the blog list means it slowly falls into decay as blogs fade away and no new ones get entered. Not to mention the amount of work involved in trying to save it just to possibly have the same tech problem again.
Yes, my position on this is extreme. I have a background in the business end of it and it didn't go well. Now, once again, I have put 3 years into development just to wake up to a lukewarm market that spent all of it's party money on that pretty dress in the window and then never got to go to the ball.
The future is unclear and I don't plan on spending this year working 20 hour days on something that there, in all likelihood, won't be a market for when it's ready.
But the real dilemma is in supporting the community. The Eternal Keep is not the only other blog I maintain. And I don't ask for money and I don't even run ads. I have done it to repay a community that has helped me as I found my way back into something I thought I would never see again. I was having a great time, tech problems and all, until I watched everyone start running after WotC like a dog after a fresh bone. That was disturbing.
If you want to get pissed at me I suppose you can. You have a right to your opinion.
But then so do I and I choose not to be a party to it.
When Alexis at Tao of D&D starts making more sense about this than anyone else I get a little freaked out.
I'm not saying everyone has went down that road. But over 75% of what I have read support WotC in these endeavors to one degree or another.
I just hope everyone thinks this through. If you really think this supports the OSR then I would ask that you spend $2 with OSR publishers for every $1 you spend on the reprints. THAT would be good for the OSR.
Something that a lot of people don't know about me is that my background is sales and marketing. My first business was a game store that not only went belly up but belly flopped so as to create a massive wave of debt that I paid off by way of a crappy job afterwards.
Now, I was young and inexperienced but not without council and guidance. This was the mid-'80s, just when the gaming industry took over. This was when my problem began.
Satanic panic had set in and the economy was crap. Instead of pulling for the retailers who were the backbone of the business at that time and standing up for the company TSR basically fed us to the lions.
So my problem began long before Wizards was even dreamed of.
But I know BS when I smell it.
I do not like the company. I do not trust the company. I can tell you the next 10 moves to make to break Paizo's back and destroy the OSR in one fell swoop. And it seems the OSR is already falling for it.
Somehow people have confused the OSR with D&D. Whatever those initials stand for D&D is not part of the OSR. For all practical purposes the OSR began with OSRIC. OSR is about NOW. Otherwise you are talking about 'classic' or 'retro' gaming. Big difference.
The division that WotC keeps causing with each new announcement will continue. Then everyone will go out and buy their crap again infusing enough money into the dept. to keep it running.
Anyone in their right mind can read what is being said about 5e and know that it is impossible. Come on, just look at one example-skills and feats - just this alone divides more fans than just about anything.
Without them you lose the new school player and with them you lose the old school player.
Old schoolers want to role-play. New schoolers want to build a tank and drive it through a dungeon.
This list could go on but I just wish people could see what is going on just as it has in the past and just say no this time. It might be different if we didn't have the vibrant scene that is gaming in some cases 24 hours a day, but we have what we need. And if we don't by tomorrow morning someone will have wrote it.
My own project sits at a crossroads. I am very frugal with resources but finding myself short of labor and behind schedule has placed me in the position of having to decide whether I proceed further. I know there must be others who are in the same corner and the folks who have made this a going concern have to have a case of nerves as well.
Top that with a rapidly changing tech situation (that I think has taken out Eternal Keep, but I'm still hoping) that is causing nightmares for everyone involved and I don't see there being an OSR at the end of the year.
Which is what they want. The re-print will give them the cash boost to get through (do you really think they aren't going to be holding back cases of DMGs to auction on eBay after the LTD ED runs out? $150 a pop most likely) and then the initial sales and reviews will drive the final nail in the coffin.
I notice how no one has mentioned how this game has already been in secret play tests and everyone I have read about in those play tests are 4e people. And they like it. Which means old schoolers will not.
The news on the Eternal Keep isn't good. Being unable to save the changes to the blog list means it slowly falls into decay as blogs fade away and no new ones get entered. Not to mention the amount of work involved in trying to save it just to possibly have the same tech problem again.
Yes, my position on this is extreme. I have a background in the business end of it and it didn't go well. Now, once again, I have put 3 years into development just to wake up to a lukewarm market that spent all of it's party money on that pretty dress in the window and then never got to go to the ball.
The future is unclear and I don't plan on spending this year working 20 hour days on something that there, in all likelihood, won't be a market for when it's ready.
But the real dilemma is in supporting the community. The Eternal Keep is not the only other blog I maintain. And I don't ask for money and I don't even run ads. I have done it to repay a community that has helped me as I found my way back into something I thought I would never see again. I was having a great time, tech problems and all, until I watched everyone start running after WotC like a dog after a fresh bone. That was disturbing.
If you want to get pissed at me I suppose you can. You have a right to your opinion.
But then so do I and I choose not to be a party to it.
When Alexis at Tao of D&D starts making more sense about this than anyone else I get a little freaked out.
I'm not saying everyone has went down that road. But over 75% of what I have read support WotC in these endeavors to one degree or another.
I just hope everyone thinks this through. If you really think this supports the OSR then I would ask that you spend $2 with OSR publishers for every $1 you spend on the reprints. THAT would be good for the OSR.
Friday, January 20, 2012
OK...AN END TO FREE PUBLICITY
So it would seem the world has went Wizards crazy over the last few weeks and I am personally tired of looking at their f****** name EVERY TIME I look at the Eternal Keep.
I became involved in the OSR because it seemed to be a home for people who were trying to carry on the spirit of gaming from it's origins.
But the last few weeks have really made me question what this is all about. I have promoted, freely and without charge, the work of those involved in the OSR in many ways and places. I have spent a great deal of personal time maintaining and adding those who have come along over the last year to my blogs and in my posts.
But now it just seems like I have been sitting in a lobby full of people just waiting for Wizards to hack up a fresh hairball.
What happened to the 'old school'? What happened to common sense?
This whole reprint issue is insane. Buy a damned DMG off Amazon for $10-15 and send a donation to the Gary fund.
As for myself this is where the Wizards train ends.
At this point I am a supporter of Pathfinder and will begin to adjust things to highlight a company that encourages me to develop and even sell material for the new Beginners Box.
Microlite is what brought me back and 3.x/OGL/OGC is really the only reason I'm in the RPG side at all.
It has been an interesting ride, but so many people have left the blog community this last year and now it seems that all I'm going to hear until GenCon 2013 is WotC WotC WotC then I think I need to rethink what I'm doing here.
Expect changes and as always may all your rolls be 20's...
I became involved in the OSR because it seemed to be a home for people who were trying to carry on the spirit of gaming from it's origins.
But the last few weeks have really made me question what this is all about. I have promoted, freely and without charge, the work of those involved in the OSR in many ways and places. I have spent a great deal of personal time maintaining and adding those who have come along over the last year to my blogs and in my posts.
But now it just seems like I have been sitting in a lobby full of people just waiting for Wizards to hack up a fresh hairball.
What happened to the 'old school'? What happened to common sense?
This whole reprint issue is insane. Buy a damned DMG off Amazon for $10-15 and send a donation to the Gary fund.
As for myself this is where the Wizards train ends.
At this point I am a supporter of Pathfinder and will begin to adjust things to highlight a company that encourages me to develop and even sell material for the new Beginners Box.
Microlite is what brought me back and 3.x/OGL/OGC is really the only reason I'm in the RPG side at all.
It has been an interesting ride, but so many people have left the blog community this last year and now it seems that all I'm going to hear until GenCon 2013 is WotC WotC WotC then I think I need to rethink what I'm doing here.
Expect changes and as always may all your rolls be 20's...
Thursday, January 19, 2012
SOMEBODY GET A TORCH IN HERE - HELL HAS FROZEN OVER
I'll just let the link do the talking...
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/02410000
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/02410000
Friday, January 13, 2012
DAMN THEE 5E
So, let me see if I understand every thing clearly and please correct me if I miss something here.
Wasbro release D&D 3.0 and piss everybody off but people buy it anyhow.
Then they turn around in short order and release 3.5 and piss everybody off but people buy it anyhow.
Then they abandon everyone in mid-stride, produce a series of marketing strategies that start the biggest edition war in history, because as portrayed in the commercials (which can be viewed at YouTube)everything before 4e is 'broken, stupid and silly', creating a small but rabid fanbase that hate every thing that came before 4e and then hate 4e when they release 4.5 (sorry, not buying the name thing...it's 4.5). Released and bought...again.
Now it's 'can't we all just get along' time because they screwed up so bad (Hint-in business NEVER piss off your long term customer) and here we go again.
They pull the Monte/5e announcement at GenCon (it was already all over the floor that at 9:30 (Saturday?) morning they were going to announce) and the big announcement is pulled because somebody realizes they are about to shoot them self in the foot by having stacks of books they will never sell. So they wait till after Christmas, BS'ing the whole time about the 'bright 4e future' while they are play testing with a group of yes-people (haven't found an old schooler yet invited to the NDA fests) and, because they aren't moving jack squat in the way of product, decide to throw a monkey wrench into the whole affair by announcing a game nearly 2 years early that, if the general gaming public is lucky, will get to pick the color of the new logo for their 'involvement' in the design of the game.
Seriously...I'm reading reactions across the web...PLEASE tell me you not going to fall for this crap...again. PLEASE.
I'm going to ask a favor from the gaming community over the months ahead. Instead of going through this whole thing again buy a system from someone who cares. Buy mine, buy any other system. Hell, buy Pathfinder...the box set is an excellent piece of gaming gear and I haven't said that about a commercial system in a long time. Support the work of those out here who will lose business because they have tossed the pie in the sky again and now everyone is waiting...for whatever they come up with this time to hang the D&D logo on.
There is one thing that must be accepted. This is not a hippy love fest. They created a splinter market that they should have stuck with and worked with the gamers who were buying the game and paying for the online services. But they just weren't moving enough units...not driving enough people into stores to buy their game. There is no way they are going to get the 4e fans and the fans of the older editions to all come back...not even half...which just sounds like more of the same old spiel.
There are a lot of really talented people out here doing excellent work. From those who toil over their pet projects and give them away for free to those who have made it a going concern. Look at the releases over the past year and the quality of the product.Don't be fooled by yet another corporate ploy that is all smoke and mirrors.
Just think about it. That's all I'm saying.
Thanks for taking time to read this. I won't speak of it further here.
20's
Wasbro release D&D 3.0 and piss everybody off but people buy it anyhow.
Then they turn around in short order and release 3.5 and piss everybody off but people buy it anyhow.
Then they abandon everyone in mid-stride, produce a series of marketing strategies that start the biggest edition war in history, because as portrayed in the commercials (which can be viewed at YouTube)everything before 4e is 'broken, stupid and silly', creating a small but rabid fanbase that hate every thing that came before 4e and then hate 4e when they release 4.5 (sorry, not buying the name thing...it's 4.5). Released and bought...again.
Now it's 'can't we all just get along' time because they screwed up so bad (Hint-in business NEVER piss off your long term customer) and here we go again.
They pull the Monte/5e announcement at GenCon (it was already all over the floor that at 9:30 (Saturday?) morning they were going to announce) and the big announcement is pulled because somebody realizes they are about to shoot them self in the foot by having stacks of books they will never sell. So they wait till after Christmas, BS'ing the whole time about the 'bright 4e future' while they are play testing with a group of yes-people (haven't found an old schooler yet invited to the NDA fests) and, because they aren't moving jack squat in the way of product, decide to throw a monkey wrench into the whole affair by announcing a game nearly 2 years early that, if the general gaming public is lucky, will get to pick the color of the new logo for their 'involvement' in the design of the game.
Seriously...I'm reading reactions across the web...PLEASE tell me you not going to fall for this crap...again. PLEASE.
I'm going to ask a favor from the gaming community over the months ahead. Instead of going through this whole thing again buy a system from someone who cares. Buy mine, buy any other system. Hell, buy Pathfinder...the box set is an excellent piece of gaming gear and I haven't said that about a commercial system in a long time. Support the work of those out here who will lose business because they have tossed the pie in the sky again and now everyone is waiting...for whatever they come up with this time to hang the D&D logo on.
There is one thing that must be accepted. This is not a hippy love fest. They created a splinter market that they should have stuck with and worked with the gamers who were buying the game and paying for the online services. But they just weren't moving enough units...not driving enough people into stores to buy their game. There is no way they are going to get the 4e fans and the fans of the older editions to all come back...not even half...which just sounds like more of the same old spiel.
There are a lot of really talented people out here doing excellent work. From those who toil over their pet projects and give them away for free to those who have made it a going concern. Look at the releases over the past year and the quality of the product.Don't be fooled by yet another corporate ploy that is all smoke and mirrors.
Just think about it. That's all I'm saying.
Thanks for taking time to read this. I won't speak of it further here.
20's
Tuesday, December 20, 2011
Going Dark
This year we have seen many of the regulars of the hobby that we call home leave the blogosphere most with timely notice.
But what of all the blogs that have went dark in almost mid-sentence?
Lord of the Green Dragons
Outlook is Grim
Sandbox of Doom
Sham’s Grog ‘n Blog
Advanced Gaming & Theory
Old Guard Gaming Accoutrements
Breeyark.org | "It's OK — Gary sent us."
Ode to Black Dougal
Confessions of Not a Grognard
Hamsterish Hoard of D&D
3d6
And I compiled that list in under 5 minutes...there are hundreds more. I have voiced that I thought that 2012 would be the year of the shaking out process. But I'm beginning to wonder if it hasn't been going on all along.
Up until now there have been several distinctly different groups all orbiting the world of the OSR / Indie / etc. Now it seems many of not only the larger players, many here from the start of the internet side of this, to the regular joes who don't post as often but have nonetheless added insight into the scene have just dropped off the radar.
I say it everyday-community is everything. That doesn't mean this is some big group hug kinda thing. We may battle verbally back and forth all day about a principle or topic but at the end of the day we make our world just a little better with the passion we bring to this very unique activity. I would have loved to see Joseph Campbell's take on what may well be the last modern form of communal story telling to exist.
Where this crazy boat ride takes us next no one can say. But I hope our fellow passengers are well and that we see their return.
Take care everyone, have a great holiday season and every chance you get-play often-play hard.
See you in the new year
20s!
But what of all the blogs that have went dark in almost mid-sentence?
Lord of the Green Dragons
Outlook is Grim
Sandbox of Doom
Sham’s Grog ‘n Blog
Advanced Gaming & Theory
Old Guard Gaming Accoutrements
Breeyark.org | "It's OK — Gary sent us."
Ode to Black Dougal
Confessions of Not a Grognard
Hamsterish Hoard of D&D
3d6
And I compiled that list in under 5 minutes...there are hundreds more. I have voiced that I thought that 2012 would be the year of the shaking out process. But I'm beginning to wonder if it hasn't been going on all along.
Up until now there have been several distinctly different groups all orbiting the world of the OSR / Indie / etc. Now it seems many of not only the larger players, many here from the start of the internet side of this, to the regular joes who don't post as often but have nonetheless added insight into the scene have just dropped off the radar.
I say it everyday-community is everything. That doesn't mean this is some big group hug kinda thing. We may battle verbally back and forth all day about a principle or topic but at the end of the day we make our world just a little better with the passion we bring to this very unique activity. I would have loved to see Joseph Campbell's take on what may well be the last modern form of communal story telling to exist.
Where this crazy boat ride takes us next no one can say. But I hope our fellow passengers are well and that we see their return.
Take care everyone, have a great holiday season and every chance you get-play often-play hard.
See you in the new year
20s!
Wednesday, November 30, 2011
FOR THE NEW YEAR
Ok, so maybe I’m jumping the gun on the end of the year thing but I want top have time to put everything in place and make the changes that will benefit everyone including myself.
First, streamlining. The news pages are very important to me and from the emails I receive they seem to be of use to many folks. I’m glad that my ‘lazy man news reader’ has been helpful to all.
There are many people in this community who have served as anchors when the winds of change have (literally) blown at my door. They serve as an example to me and I hope others of staying on target. You guys know who you are and you all need an email of thanks before this year is out.
Second, I have started a few other news sites to help ease the load on Eternal Keep. I have seen the results of too much crammed on one page and it reminds me of that online seizure, MySpace. So The Keep has gotten cleaned up and I have created additional sites to ease the load. I will be moving some entries to these new sites over the 1st Q to better distribute the load. Many may have spotted new links on the right side of the page at The Keep (I will be adding the links to all blogs). There are a few more to go there but the main issue is getting everything cross linked to make it easier to find the news source that fits your daily read.
The additional news sites are:
• The Lone RPG Gamer -Covering Solo News From Around The Web
• Weirdlands-News of Weird Fantasy, Space Fantasy, Planetary Romance & Swords & Planets-style RPGs
• The Call of the Dungeon-OD&D News
• Tabletop Skirmish-Wargames, Minis & More
The Eternal Keep will continue to function as the daily hub of news in general but the software limitations of the widget have topped out more than once this year and as new requests have come in to be added to the list I have found myself having to cut more blogs from the bottom of the list.
My plan is to move some of the slower posting blogs over to categorized sites and to keep more active blogs on the Eternal Keep. That keeps everyone just one click away from their favorites.
Having way to many irons in the fire this year has taught me how important knowing your limitations are.
I want the news sites to be basically self-sustaining so that I can concentrate on getting the projects back on track. As many might know by now I have opted to drop the pdf version of CRoA (Classic Realms of Adventure) in favor of just using the Classic Realms blog for the time being. I purchased the domain so that if the day comes that I want to put it all together somewhere else I will have a thread for folks to follow to find me. I will bring out the pdf and even possibly a print version of the zine but only when I have the proper help to do so. The 20 hour days are getting to me and the pace I have tried to keep this year is not good.
My main three outlets will be the ADD Grognard blog for announcements and commentary, Classic Realms of Adventure to act as a central hub for releases in general and the entries that will comprise the blog version of CRoA and the Forsaken Souls blog for announcements, development notes and eventually the hub for all things Forsaken that are currently in my ‘inbox’ that reaches half-way to the moon.
Speaking of Forsaken Souls, the work on the project has been re-booted and I am looking at different ways of bringing the system to market. It seems the one thing we have seen this year is a plethora of system releases and complaints of no support (I guess that would mean supplements, adventures, creature guides, etc) and the question from mid-year on has been ‘Do we need another D&D?’
I’ve posted that I’m not one to step between someone and their muse, but there does seem to be a bit of overload this year. I congratulate all those who have been able to bring their vision to life. But I find myself asking the same question as a gamer…do I need another D&D-type game in the collection? For myself, unless it is something that I am an ardent follower of, I am taking a break from new systems for awhile. I agree that we need more support and went back to re-do Forsaken Souls so that it isn’t viewed as ‘just another D&D’. I am attempting to satisfy the challenges I have read across the blogosphere to bring more to the table. If I feel that I am proceeding in the right direction I plan on using something like Kickstarter and releasing the first series of projects at some point next year. I will not tease a date because it is far too soon to call it and I don’t want another missed deadline. It is driving me crazy when I see that deadline looming and knowing I’m not going to make it.
As for the other side projects I currently have churning away out there they will have to wait (with the exception of Darkness Over Dunwich –dedicated to HP Lovecraft and the sites that cover all things Eldritch - and the FFG titles Elder Sign and Arkham Horror). I love working on them but there just isn’t enough hours in the day to try and keep this up. I will be deciding which to backburner and which to drop entirely after the first of the year. It won’t be easy but something has to be done to pare down the work schedule. I’m ready to see a completed project in someone’s hands and the sooner the better. With any luck I can afford to hire someone and take on a part time intern to help and then the pump will be properly primed.
And no, I will not be ‘nuking’ any sites but I will have the common courtesy to mark the blog as ‘parked’ for the time being.
Between all the activity on the horizon and the Mayans putting their 2 cents in on 2012 it should prove to be an interesting year.
I would like to take a moment and say thank you to those who have left the community over the last year. I probably wouldn’t be doing this if it weren’t for you guys and I am saddened whenever someone has to leave us. May the road rise with you.
Now that I have typed a novel I guess I need to give it a rest.
Until next time…
First, streamlining. The news pages are very important to me and from the emails I receive they seem to be of use to many folks. I’m glad that my ‘lazy man news reader’ has been helpful to all.
There are many people in this community who have served as anchors when the winds of change have (literally) blown at my door. They serve as an example to me and I hope others of staying on target. You guys know who you are and you all need an email of thanks before this year is out.
Second, I have started a few other news sites to help ease the load on Eternal Keep. I have seen the results of too much crammed on one page and it reminds me of that online seizure, MySpace. So The Keep has gotten cleaned up and I have created additional sites to ease the load. I will be moving some entries to these new sites over the 1st Q to better distribute the load. Many may have spotted new links on the right side of the page at The Keep (I will be adding the links to all blogs). There are a few more to go there but the main issue is getting everything cross linked to make it easier to find the news source that fits your daily read.
The additional news sites are:
• The Lone RPG Gamer -Covering Solo News From Around The Web
• Weirdlands-News of Weird Fantasy, Space Fantasy, Planetary Romance & Swords & Planets-style RPGs
• The Call of the Dungeon-OD&D News
• Tabletop Skirmish-Wargames, Minis & More
The Eternal Keep will continue to function as the daily hub of news in general but the software limitations of the widget have topped out more than once this year and as new requests have come in to be added to the list I have found myself having to cut more blogs from the bottom of the list.
My plan is to move some of the slower posting blogs over to categorized sites and to keep more active blogs on the Eternal Keep. That keeps everyone just one click away from their favorites.
Having way to many irons in the fire this year has taught me how important knowing your limitations are.
I want the news sites to be basically self-sustaining so that I can concentrate on getting the projects back on track. As many might know by now I have opted to drop the pdf version of CRoA (Classic Realms of Adventure) in favor of just using the Classic Realms blog for the time being. I purchased the domain so that if the day comes that I want to put it all together somewhere else I will have a thread for folks to follow to find me. I will bring out the pdf and even possibly a print version of the zine but only when I have the proper help to do so. The 20 hour days are getting to me and the pace I have tried to keep this year is not good.
My main three outlets will be the ADD Grognard blog for announcements and commentary, Classic Realms of Adventure to act as a central hub for releases in general and the entries that will comprise the blog version of CRoA and the Forsaken Souls blog for announcements, development notes and eventually the hub for all things Forsaken that are currently in my ‘inbox’ that reaches half-way to the moon.
Speaking of Forsaken Souls, the work on the project has been re-booted and I am looking at different ways of bringing the system to market. It seems the one thing we have seen this year is a plethora of system releases and complaints of no support (I guess that would mean supplements, adventures, creature guides, etc) and the question from mid-year on has been ‘Do we need another D&D?’
I’ve posted that I’m not one to step between someone and their muse, but there does seem to be a bit of overload this year. I congratulate all those who have been able to bring their vision to life. But I find myself asking the same question as a gamer…do I need another D&D-type game in the collection? For myself, unless it is something that I am an ardent follower of, I am taking a break from new systems for awhile. I agree that we need more support and went back to re-do Forsaken Souls so that it isn’t viewed as ‘just another D&D’. I am attempting to satisfy the challenges I have read across the blogosphere to bring more to the table. If I feel that I am proceeding in the right direction I plan on using something like Kickstarter and releasing the first series of projects at some point next year. I will not tease a date because it is far too soon to call it and I don’t want another missed deadline. It is driving me crazy when I see that deadline looming and knowing I’m not going to make it.
As for the other side projects I currently have churning away out there they will have to wait (with the exception of Darkness Over Dunwich –dedicated to HP Lovecraft and the sites that cover all things Eldritch - and the FFG titles Elder Sign and Arkham Horror). I love working on them but there just isn’t enough hours in the day to try and keep this up. I will be deciding which to backburner and which to drop entirely after the first of the year. It won’t be easy but something has to be done to pare down the work schedule. I’m ready to see a completed project in someone’s hands and the sooner the better. With any luck I can afford to hire someone and take on a part time intern to help and then the pump will be properly primed.
And no, I will not be ‘nuking’ any sites but I will have the common courtesy to mark the blog as ‘parked’ for the time being.
Between all the activity on the horizon and the Mayans putting their 2 cents in on 2012 it should prove to be an interesting year.
I would like to take a moment and say thank you to those who have left the community over the last year. I probably wouldn’t be doing this if it weren’t for you guys and I am saddened whenever someone has to leave us. May the road rise with you.
Now that I have typed a novel I guess I need to give it a rest.
Until next time…
Tuesday, November 15, 2011
Kindling For The Fire
It would seem that burnout and frustration has been the subject matter of late so I thought we should find the positive in it and ask this: How do you revitalize yourself from burnout?
For me, I like to get outside my comfort zone where I'm not just glossing over things and missing important details. DEEP DELVE helped a lot with that.
Lately I felt a need for a deeper cleansing and something that the creative side of it would be as play. That beast is ARKHAM HORROR.
It started with checking out a new release from Fantasy Flight Games (FFG) called ELDER SIGN and it was worse than crack. I had a session running 24 hours a day until just recently as I transitioned into its big brother ARKHAM HORROR.
Now waiting to complete the collection I have dove head first into fresh waters. I haven't played anything remotely called a 'boardgame' in years and this new generation has really opened my eyes as to why boardgame sales have been on the rise. The fan base behind the game, and I should call it a system at this point, has generated an enormous amount of support material that looks to be as much fun as FFG's work.
I have already felt my energy returning and have been re-organizing my approach to my rpg project after listening to the vox populi this year. I have to agree with many of the points made but I also have to stand on the principle that we know not whence or why our muse appears, just that she doesn't wait around for market trend reports. You have to create when the ideas are flowing and put them out there.
Are we a little top heavy on systems and a little light on support? Yes, but we are also a community evolving, finding our way in the dark forest that gaming had become after so many disappointing years of system separation. Please note that I'm not bashing anyone or any system they support. The waves that were created have spoken loudly and I have no sway towards any camp except that of fun and freedom to create.
And for me that is the essence of creation. Whether it be an adventure for your regular group to play in or a complete system to build new worlds with it has to be fun and when it's a drag it does not serve its purpose.
So, in your hour of need, where do you turn to find inspiration and fresh flame for the fire?
For me, I like to get outside my comfort zone where I'm not just glossing over things and missing important details. DEEP DELVE helped a lot with that.
Lately I felt a need for a deeper cleansing and something that the creative side of it would be as play. That beast is ARKHAM HORROR.
It started with checking out a new release from Fantasy Flight Games (FFG) called ELDER SIGN and it was worse than crack. I had a session running 24 hours a day until just recently as I transitioned into its big brother ARKHAM HORROR.
Now waiting to complete the collection I have dove head first into fresh waters. I haven't played anything remotely called a 'boardgame' in years and this new generation has really opened my eyes as to why boardgame sales have been on the rise. The fan base behind the game, and I should call it a system at this point, has generated an enormous amount of support material that looks to be as much fun as FFG's work.
I have already felt my energy returning and have been re-organizing my approach to my rpg project after listening to the vox populi this year. I have to agree with many of the points made but I also have to stand on the principle that we know not whence or why our muse appears, just that she doesn't wait around for market trend reports. You have to create when the ideas are flowing and put them out there.
Are we a little top heavy on systems and a little light on support? Yes, but we are also a community evolving, finding our way in the dark forest that gaming had become after so many disappointing years of system separation. Please note that I'm not bashing anyone or any system they support. The waves that were created have spoken loudly and I have no sway towards any camp except that of fun and freedom to create.
And for me that is the essence of creation. Whether it be an adventure for your regular group to play in or a complete system to build new worlds with it has to be fun and when it's a drag it does not serve its purpose.
So, in your hour of need, where do you turn to find inspiration and fresh flame for the fire?
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